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FX Brokers/ Dealers

Last post 02-15-2009, 19:27 by wabbit. 5 replies.
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  •  02-13-2009, 23:27 28905

    FX Brokers/ Dealers

    Can anyone recommend a good FX (Forex) Broker/ Dealer that is not in the business of driving their clients into bankruptcy?

  •  02-14-2009, 1:39 28906 in reply to 28905

    Re: FX Brokers/ Dealers

    Hi KCTrader,

    Welcome to the Forum.

    I have had several FX trading accounts in the past few years; the longest open account was with IBFX but I have just switched to GO Markets.  The only reason I have switched is just to keep my money closer to home; I never had any issues with IBFX, in fact, a couple of the people of used to work for Equis are now at IBFX and provide excellent assistance and guidance when asked.  I hope GO Markets will provide as good a service, I will let you know how it goes.  I have freinds who are with Alpari, IB, IBFX, FXCM, FXDD and some others.  Obviously, if one broker was head-and-shoulders better than the rest we'd all be with that broker, indicating that each broker has their own strengths and weaknesses, and some meet individual requirements better than others.

    I don't believe any brokerage has a business model to bankrupt their clients.  My experience in trading FX over the past few years and participation in many different seminars, forums and webinars etc is that a lot of people who blame the brokers for their losses are looking for scapegoats for their own stupidity/laziness/greed.  From my experieinces, often the broker has very little to be blamed for.  Even when scalpers blame the broker for requotes and the like, the scalper has to remember that each position must be matched by the broker and this can take some time (sometimes up to several minutes in slower pairs) and just as the scalper has to compute their own risk profile for the position, so does the broker.  Can you (or anyone) provide proof that a brokerage had malicious intentions?  I have seen many accusations on other online forums, yet no-one has ever provided any concrete proof, and saying, "I lost my entire account!" is not proof of malicious conduct or intent.


    wabbit Big Smile [:D]


    "The question of whether a computer can think is no more interesting than the question of whether a submarine can swim."
    Edsgar W. Dijkstra

     

    MS: 6.52 EOD, 7.x EOD, 8.0 PRO, 9.2 PRO w/QC, 10 PRO w/QC & MDK
    For custom MetaStock programming : http://www.wabbit.com.au
    My SkyPE status :
    My SkyPE account : wabbit.com.au

  •  02-14-2009, 10:41 28907 in reply to 28906

    Re: FX Brokers/ Dealers

    Hi Wabbit,

    Thanks for the feedback, and for the welcome.  Looking back on my initial post, I realize it is harsh, and I apologize.  That really was not my intent, and I definitely could have constructed my question more positively.  What I am looking for is a Broker/ Dealer that is highly reputable and deals with their clients above reproach.  These are some of the services I am looking for in a Broker/ Dealer (in no particular order):  (1) Easy to interpret and accurate account history and account transparency.  (2)  Excellent phone support, including technical and account support.  (3) Excellent tax documentation. (4) Clearly displayed spread rates and/ or commission & fee structure.  (5) Intuitive trading platform, which allows for multiple charts and the ability to develop custom indicators. (Note: I use MetaStock Pro 10.1 for my all my technical analysis, but I like to compare my Metastock analysis with the charts from the Broker/ Dealer trading platform for final price and spread).  (6) Easy & fast account deposits and WITHDRAWALS.

    The following is solely my opinion, as I am not a professional trader/ broker or financial adviser.

    The wording of my original question comes more from suspicion than anything else.  It seems to me that any forex broker/ dealer has the ability to take advantage of their clients whether the company is a Dealing Desk, an ECN or a Market Maker.  As I understand it, only banking institution can directly participate on the Interbank fx system, and in order for the average retail trader to participate in the Forex markets they must deal with a Broker/ Dealer.  Now because most retail traders are with dealing with lot sizes less than 100k units, the Broker/ Dealer has no choice but to take the opposing side of the trade.  Now I know and accept that this has to happen for the retail trader to participate in the Forex market, but it seems to me that in order for the trader to win, the Broker Dealer MAY have to lose, regardless of the spread (which they set), in some instances.  So right off the bat, the Broker/ Dealer in some instances has a conflict of interest.  This inherent conflict of interest coupled with the fact that the Forex market is an unregulated (self-regulated) OTC market, can lead to unscrupulous companies entering the Forex retail market as Broker/ Dealers and prey upon and take advantage of unsuspecting retailer traders in many areas including price/ spread manipulation.  I absolutely agree with you in that there are "a lot of people who blame the brokers for their losses and looking for scapegoats for their own stupidity/laziness/greed."  But I don't think all the suspicions these people have are necessarily unfounded.   As I understand it, there are many broker/ dealer firms that have been investigated for unscrupulous and criminal practices in relation to how they deal with their clients.

    It is not my intent to open this thread in order to start "bashing" brokers or dealers.  In fact, I would like to see the exact opposite happen and invite an open discussion where we call can learn about the Broker/ Dealers that can offer the best products and services to the retail trader.  I believe there has to be many more reputable and well intentioned Dealer/ Brokers than not, and I hope this thread can help indentify the them.

    I look forward to reading all the feedback and seeing this thread develop.Big Smile [:D]

  •  02-14-2009, 13:54 28908 in reply to 28906

    Re: FX Brokers/ Dealers

    Hi Wabbit,

    I wanted to ask for your feedback on this article I was forwarded.  Do you think this is an accurate description of the Forex Market.  Any feedback would be greatly appreciated.

    Forex Retail Trading Market

     

    There has been much discussion of late regarding broker spreads and liquidity.  Many assumptions are being made about why spreads are widened during news time that are built on an incomplete knowledge of the architecture of the forex market in general.  The purpose of this article is to dissect the market and hopefully shed some light on the situation so that a more rational and productive discussion can be undertaken by Forex retail traders.

     

    We will begin with an explanation of the purpose of the Forex market and how it is utilized by its primary participants, expand into the structure and operation of the market, and conclude with the implications of this information for speculators.  With that having been said, let us begin.

     

    Unlike the various bond and equity markets, the Forex market is not generally utilized as an investment medium.  While speculation has a critical role in its proper function, the lion’s share of Forex transactions are done as a function of international business.

     

    The guy who buys a shiny new Camry more then likely will pay for it with US Dollars.  Unfortunately Toyota's factory workers in Japan need to get their paychecks denominated in Yen, so at some point a conversion needs to be made.  When one considers that companies like Exxon, Boeing, Sony, Dell, Honda, and thousands of other international businesses move nearly every dollar, real, yen, rubble, pound, and euro they make in a foreign country through the Forex market, it isn’t hard to understand how insignificant the speculative presence is; even in a $2 trillion per day market.

     

    By and large, businesses don’t much care about the intricacies of exchange rates, they just want to make and sell their products.  As a central repository of a company’s money, it was only natural that the banks would be the facilitators of these transactions.  In the old days it was easy enough for a bank to call a foreign bank (or a foreign branch of ones own bank) and swap the stockpiles of currency each had accumulated from their many customers.

     

    Just as any business would, the banks bought the foreign currency at one rate and marked it up before selling it to the customer.  With that the foreign exchange spread was born.  This was (and still is) a reasonable cost of doing business. Toyota can pay its employees and the banks make a nice little profit for the hassle and risks associated with moving around the currency.

     

    As a byproduct of transacting all this business, bank traders developed the ability to speculate on the future of currency rates.  Utilizing a better understanding of the market, a bank could quote a business a spread on the current rate but hold off hedging until a better one came along.  This process allowed the banks to expand their net income dramatically.  The unfortunate consequence was that liquidity was redistributed in a way that made certain transactions impossible to complete. 

     

    It was for this reason and this reason alone that the market was eventually opened up to non-bank participants.  The banks wanted more orders in the market so that:  a) they could profit from the less experienced participants, and  b) the less experienced participants could provide a better liquidity distribution for execution of international business hedge orders.  Initially only megacap hedge funds (such as Soros’s and others) were permitted, but it has since grown to include the retail brokerages and ECNs.

     

    Market Structure:

    Now that we have established why the market exists, let’s take a look at how the transactions are facilitated:

     

    The top tier of the Forex market is transacted on what is collectively known as the Interbank.  Contrary to popular belief the Interbank is not an exchange; it is a collection of communication agreements between the world’s largest money center banks.

     

    To understand the structure of the Interbank market, it may be easier to grasp by way of analogy.  Consider that in an office (or maybe even someone’s home) there are multiple computers connected via a network cable.  Each computer operates independently of the others until it needs a resource that another computer possesses.  At that point it will contact the other computer and request access to the necessary resource.  If the computer is working properly and its owner has given the requestor authorization to do so, the resource can be accessed and the initiating computers request can be fulfilled.  By substituting computers for banks and resources for currency, you can easily grasp the relationships that exist on the Interbank.

     

    Anyone who has ever tried to find resources on a computer network without a server can appreciate how difficult it can be to keep track of who has what resources.  The same issue exists on the Interbank market with regard to prices and currency inventory.  A bank in Singapore may only rarely transact business with a company that needs to exchange some Brazilian Real and it can be very difficult to establish what a proper exchange rate should be.  It is for this purpose that EBS and Reuters (hereafter EBS) established their services.

     

    Layered on top (in a manner of speaking) of the Interbank communication links, the EBS service enables banks to see how much and at what prices all the Interbank members are willing to transact.  Pains should be taken to express that EBS is not a market or a market maker; it is an application used to see bids and offers from the various banks.

     

    The second tier of the market exists essential within each bank.  By calling your local Bank of America branch you can exchange any foreign currency you would like.  More then likely they will just move some excess currency from one branch to another.  Since this is a micro-exchange with a single counterparty, you are basically at their mercy as to what exchange rate they will quote you.  Your choice is to accept their offer or shop a different bank.  Everyone who trades the Forex market should visit their bank at least once to get a few quotes.  It would be very enlightening to see how lucrative these transactions really are.

     

    Branching off of this second tier is the third tier retail market.  When brokers like Oanda, Forex.com, FXCM, etc. desire to establish a retail operation the first thing they need is a liquidity provider.  Nine out of ten of these brokers will sign an agreement with just one bank.  This bank will agree to provide liquidity if and only if they can hedge it on EBS inclusive of their desired spread.  Because the volume will be significantly higher a single bank patron will transact, the spreads will be much more competitive.  By no means should it be expected these tier 3 providers will be quoted precisely what exists on the Interbank.  Remember the bank is in the business of collecting spreads and no agreement is going to suspend that priority.

     

    Retail Forex is almost akin to running a casino.  The majority of its participants have zero understanding how to trade effectively and as a result are consistent losers.  The spread system combined with a standard probability distribution of returns gives the broker a built in house advantage of a few percentage points.  As a result, they have all built internal order matching systems that play one loser off against a winner and collect the spread.  On the occasions when disequilibrium exists within the internal order book, the broker hedges any exposure with their tier 2 liquidity provider.

     

    As bad as this may sound, there are some significant advantages for speculators that deal with them. Because it is an internal order book, many features can be provided which are otherwise unavailable through other means.  Non-standard contract sizes, high leverage on tiny account balances, and the ability to transact in a commission free environment are just a few of them.

     

    An ECN operates similar to a Tier 2 bank, but still exists on the third tier.  An ECN will generally establish agreements with several tier 2 banks for liquidity.  However instead of matching orders internally, it will just pass through the quotes from the banks, as is, to be traded on.  It’s sort of an EBS for little guys.  There are many advantages to the model, but it is still not the Interbank.  The banks are going to make their spread or their not go to waste their time.  Depending on the bank this will take the form of price shading or widened spreads depending on market conditions.  The ECN, for its trouble, collects a commission on each transaction.

     

    Aside from the commission factor, there are some other disadvantages a speculator should consider before making the leap to an ECN.  Most offer much lower leverage and only allow full lot transactions. During certain market conditions, the banks may also pull their liquidity leaving traders without an opportunity to enter or exit positions at their desired price.

     

    Trade Mechanics:

    It is convenient to believe that in a $2trillion per day market there is always enough liquidity to do what needs to be done.  Unfortunately belief does not negate the reality that for every buyer there MUST be a seller or no transaction can occur.  When an order is too large to transact at the current price, the price moves to the point where open interest is abundant enough to cover it.  Every time you see price move a single pip, it means that an order was executed that consumed (or otherwise removed) the open interest at the current price. There is no other way that prices can move.

     

    As we covered earlier, each bank lists on EBS how much and at what price they are willing to transact a currency.  It is important to note that no Interbank participant is under any obligation to make a transaction if they do not feel it is in their best interest.  There are no “market makers” on the Interbank; only speculators and hedgers.

     

    Looking at an ECN platform or Level II data on the stock market, one can get a feel for what the orders on EBS look like. The following is a sample representation: 

     

    <<<<Level II Screen Shot, that I am unable to upload>>>>

     

    You’ll notice that there is open interest (Level II Vol figures) of various sizes at different price points. Each one of those units represents existing limit orders and in this example, each unit is $1mil in currency.

     

    Using this information, if a market sell order was placed for 38.4mil, the spread would instantly widen from 2.5 pips to 4.5 pips because there would no longer be any orders between 1.56300 and 1.56345.  No broker, market maker, bank, or thief in the night widened the spread; it was the natural byproduct of the order that was placed.  If no additional orders entered the market, the spread would remain this large forever.  Fortunately, someone somewhere will deem a price point between those 2 figures an appropriate opportunity to do something and place an order.  That order will either consume more interest or add to it, depending whether it is a market or limit order respectively.

     

    What would have happened if someone placed a market sell order for 2mil just 1 millisecond after that 38.4 mil order hit?  They would have been filled at 1.5630.  Why were they “slipped”?  Because there was no one to take the other side of the transaction at 1.56320 any longer.  Again, nobody was out screwing the trader; it was the natural byproduct of the order flow.

     

    A more interesting question is, what would happen if all the listed orders where suddenly canceled?  The spread would widen to a point at which there were existing bids and offers.  That may be 5,7,9, or even 100 pips; it is going to widen to whatever the difference between a bid and an offer are.  Notice that nobody came in and “set” the spread, they just refused to transact at anything between it.

     

    Nothing can be done to force orders into existence that don’t exist. Regardless what market is being examined or what broker is facilitating transactions, it is impossible to avoid spreads and slippage.  They are a fact of life in the realm of trading.

     

    Implications for speculators:

    Trading has been characterized as a zero sum game, and rightly so.  If trader A sells a security to trader B and the price goes up, trader A lost money that they otherwise could have made.  If it goes down, Trader A made money from trader B’s mistake.  Even in a huge market like the Forex, each transaction must have a buyer and a seller to make a trade and one of them is going to lose.  In the general realm of trading, this is materially irrelevant to each participant.  But there are certain situations where it becomes of significant importance.  One of those situations is a news event.

     

    Much has been made of late about how it is immoral, illegal, or downright evil for a broker, bank, or other liquidity provider to withdraw their order (increasing the spread) and slip orders (as though it was a conscious decision on their part to do so) more then normal during these events.  These things occur for very specific reasons which have nothing to do with screwing anyone.  Let us examine why:

     

    Leading up to an economic report for example, certain traders will enter into positions expecting the news to go a certain way. As the event becomes immanent, the banks on the Interbank will remove their speculative orders for fear of taking unnecessary losses. Technical traders will pull their orders as well since it is common practice for them to avoid the news. Hedge funds and other macro traders are either already positioned or waiting until after the news hits to make decisions dependent on the result.

     

    Knowing what we now know, where is the liquidity necessary to maintain a tight spread coming from?

     

    Moving down the food chain to Tier 2; a bank will only provide liquidity to an ECN or retail broker if they can instantly hedge (plus their requisite spread) the positions on Interbank.  If the Interbank spreads are widening due to lower liquidity, the bank is going to have to widen the spreads on the downstream players as well.

     

    At tier 3 the ECN’s are simply passing the banks offers on, so spreads widen up to their customers.  The retailers that guarantee spreads of 2 to 5 pips have just opened a gaping hole in their risk profile since they can no longer hedge their net exposure (ever wonder why they always seem to shut down or requote until its over?).  The variable spread retailers in turn open up their spreads to match what is happening at the bank or they run into the same problems fixed spreads broker are dealing with.

     

    Now think about this situation for a second.  What is going to happen when a number misses expectations?  How many traders going into the event with positions chose wrong and need to get out ASAP?  How many hedge funds are going to instantly drop their macro orders?  How many retail traders’ straddle orders just executed?  How many of them were waiting to hear a miss and executed market orders?

     

    With the technical traders on the sidelines, who is going to be stupid enough to take the other side of all these orders?

    The answer is no one. Between 1 and 5 seconds after the news hits it is a purely a 1 way market.  That big long pin bar that occurs is a grand total of 2 prices; the one before the news hit and the one after. The 10, 20, or 30 pips between them is called a gap.

     

    Is it any wonder that slippage is in evidence at this time?

     

    Conclusions:

    Each tier of the Forex market has its own inherent advantages and disadvantages.  Depending on your priorities you have to make a choice between what restrictions you can live with and those you can not. Unfortunately, you can’t always get what you want.

     

    By focusing on slippage and spreads, which are the natural byproduct of order flow, one is not only pursuing a futile ideal, they are passing up an enormous opportunity to capitalize on true inefficiencies.  News events are one of the few times where a large number of players are positioned inappropriately and it is fairly easy to profit from their foolishness.  If a trader truly wants to make the leap to the next level of profitability they should be spending their time figuring out how identify these positions and trading with the goal of capturing the price movement they inevitably will cause.

     

    Nobody is going to make the argument that a broker is a trader’s best friend, but they still provide a valuable service and should be compensated for their efforts.  By accepting a broker for what it is and learning how to work within the limitations of the relationship, traders have access to a world of opportunity that they otherwise could never dream of capturing.  Let us all remember that simple truth.

     

     

  •  02-15-2009, 4:25 28911 in reply to 28907

    Re: FX Brokers/ Dealers

    KCTrader:
    (1) Easy to interpret and accurate account history and account transparency.
      Many brokers offer complete account histories, and many brokers which have customisable platforms include account-detail interfaces which can make up any perceived shortfall in the broker provided information.
    KCTrader:
    (2)  Excellent phone support, including technical and account support.
    One may theorise that a truly good broker wont need to offer support as everything should be working fine already.  As this is rarely the case, a good support service is invaluable.  "Good" and "bad" however are subjective and only assessable by the individual.
    KCTrader:
    (3) Excellent tax documentation.
    See 1.
    KCTrader:
    (4) Clearly displayed spread rates and/ or commission & fee structure.
    Spreads change; it's a fact of life.  If you're paying a spread then you shouldn't be paying a commission. If you're paying a commission, you shouldn't be paying a spread.  Most brokers have a web page showing these details, and send email or other news message through their trading platforms when conditions change.  Like all disclaimers, most brokers have their ubiquitous, "may change without notice" in their contract conditions.
    KCTrader:
    (5) Intuitive trading platform, which allows for multiple charts and the ability to develop custom indicators. (Note: I use MetaStock Pro 10.1 for my all my technical analysis, but I like to compare my Metastock analysis with the charts from the Broker/ Dealer trading platform for final price and spread).
    Intuitive is not necessarily a standard feature; common sense is common to all.  What some people see as a very intuitive package is a bug-bear of hard work for others.  Some very popular trading platforms like MetaTrader (MT4) is offered with a data feed free from many brokers; others like NinjaTrader have a (life-time?) subscription for the software but the data feed is free fromt he broker.  These packages allow for custom coding and direct interface with the broker for automated trading.  MetaStock can be used for automated trading, but it requires the development of customised interfaces to the specific broker APIs; many of the existing packages such as MT4 already take into account some factor which you'd have to consider if you chose to use MetaStock in an automated trading system.
    KCTrader:
    (6) Easy & fast account deposits and WITHDRAWALS.
    The speed of adding/withdrawing funds to/from an account is dependent on many factors.  In my experience, direct deposits to the broker account can take 24 hours to clear the funds, B-Pay can take a few days, credit cards and PayPal can be the most expeditious; but it depends on the infrastructre within the broker, and the compliance levels required by the regulatory authorities. (CC deposits to IBFX were much faster than CC deposits to GO Markets because of the ASIC requirements in Australia).


    As there is no other way to play the FX market without a broker (unless you are a bank yourself?) then you will require their services.  Trust is never just given automatically; trust has to be earned.  And just because one person trusts their broker, this is insufficient grounds for everyone to trust that broker.  Like all things, some trial and error may be required.  Many people paper trade their system before committing their funds, software like MT4 and others allows people to "forward test" their trading in demo servers; I believe that it is very prudent to open a small trading account and use this as the final, real-time real-life test of the system and the broker.  My recommendation is to do a few web-searches to find a broker whom meets most/all of your requirements (ignoring all the rhetoric/fluff on the internet) then open a small account with funds which you can afford to lose.  A few dollars lost in the short term might protect you from potentially devastating loses in the future.



    Hope this helps.

    wabbit Big Smile [:D]



    "The question of whether a computer can think is no more interesting than the question of whether a submarine can swim."
    Edsgar W. Dijkstra

     

    MS: 6.52 EOD, 7.x EOD, 8.0 PRO, 9.2 PRO w/QC, 10 PRO w/QC & MDK
    For custom MetaStock programming : http://www.wabbit.com.au
    My SkyPE status :
    My SkyPE account : wabbit.com.au

  •  02-15-2009, 19:27 28917 in reply to 28908

    Re: FX Brokers/ Dealers

    KCTrader:
    I wanted to ask for your feedback on this article I was forwarded.  Do you think this is an accurate description of the Forex Market.  Any feedback would be greatly appreciated.


    Hi again KC,

    I think the article is very well written and we should endeavour to identify and acknowledge the work of the author.  Perhaps you could edit your post and include the author's details (if known?)

    What the author says in the article is, so far as I know, a correct representation of the interbank trading "works".  Perhaps, instead of getting my lowly opinion, you could forward the article to your favourite broker and ask them to comment on it, and with their permission post the replies here.

    I do agree with the comments and explanations about how and why spreads can change due to "normal" market forces; I agree that at some time unscrupulous brokers have purposely manipulated spreads for their own benefits (but these brokers are breaking the laws in many countries and eventually they will either 1) get caught, and/or 2) sufficiently pi55 their clients off so they leave and work with another broker.)  Obtaining proof of these actions is another matter entirely!

    I would be interested to post the missing market-depth image as it specifically referred to in the post; please either read the forum posts on how to include an image in your post, or send the image to me via email and I will edit your post to include it.

    I would have liked the author to expand on the market depth and orders situation to include the reasons why stops are commonly/sometimes/rarely executed exactly as specified by the trader, and how a stop order placed with too small a slippage argument can fail to be transacted thus leaving the trader with a larger loss than anticipated.  (Maybe even go on to say this is only a "paper-loss" as the trade is actually still open; maybe even discuss the possible actions open to the trader under these circumstances.  If you read enough FX trading forums, non-execution of stop orders is a popular complaint by traders blaming brokers for their losses.)

    Otherwise, this is a good article and is definitely worth the time to read a few times.  I think a lot of the information about markets can also be applied with some lateral thinking, to other markets such as equities, futures, bonds, etc.


    Hope this helps.

    wabbit Big Smile [:D]

    P.S. How many FX traders do we have on the forum?  What's your opinion on this article?  Do you know of better explanations somewhere else?


    "The question of whether a computer can think is no more interesting than the question of whether a submarine can swim."
    Edsgar W. Dijkstra

     

    MS: 6.52 EOD, 7.x EOD, 8.0 PRO, 9.2 PRO w/QC, 10 PRO w/QC & MDK
    For custom MetaStock programming : http://www.wabbit.com.au
    My SkyPE status :
    My SkyPE account : wabbit.com.au

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